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Abortions and contraceptives, Welfare and medicare/medicaid____

JustBeingAtPeace 2012/12/13 19:05:19
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How can it be "logically" explained to be not connected? How can people argue they are against abortions but against contraceptives yet say, Stay out of my wallet I am tired of giving you handouts, I'm not paying for your contraceptives but hey, I won't help you survive once your pregnant and you better not get an abortion! I am so confused by this. While I am completely pro-life, I am also Pro-choice. Please try to be civil if you answer this, I am "truely" confused =/
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  • Just me ♥ 2012/12/14 20:38:52
    Other..
    Just me ♥
    +2
    I don't understand why I should be expected to pay for someone else's birth control.
  • JustBei... Just me ♥ 2012/12/14 23:28:54
    JustBeingAtPeace
    +1
    I understand that response and agree but, either way "we" will pay and for "my" part I would rather pay for contrceptives than an abortion or 18yrs of welfare and more. Thank you for your opinion :-)
  • Just me ♥ JustBei... 2012/12/14 23:33:50
    Just me ♥
    +2
    I'd rather not pay for anyone's abortions, birth control, healthcare, or welfare, and think that people should be responsible for themselves, but when push comes to shove, I think that paying $9 per month for someone's BCPs is the cheapest and most moral option if people can't control themselves.
  • JustBei... Just me ♥ 2012/12/15 00:20:39
    JustBeingAtPeace
    +1
    Id rather not as well! And agreed!
  • WATCHER JustBei... 2012/12/16 03:52:18
    WATCHER
    Why is health care attached to morality?
  • JustBei... WATCHER 2012/12/16 04:09:33
    JustBeingAtPeace
    Not sure but I was raised to care about myself as well as others. But good question. My morals connect me maybe is what it is....But if and that is a BIG if others had better morals they would be a lot better off..I don't know right now but am not ignoring your question just...drained will revisit this with a cup of coffee and a clear refreshed mind in the morning. Good question...thank you
  • WATCHER Just me ♥ 2012/12/16 03:51:45
    WATCHER
    Why are you willing to pay for insulin for diabetic, health care of those with emphysema and heart surgery for smokers

    It is all the exact same moral issues
  • Just me ♥ WATCHER 2012/12/16 04:16:09
    Just me ♥
    +1
    It's not the same. Not even close.
  • WATCHER Just me ♥ 2012/12/16 03:50:25
    WATCHER
    Why should anyone pay for the medical procedure of others either. That is what health insurance is all about
  • katyuska rojas 2012/12/14 01:18:09
    Im in the same boat!!
    katyuska rojas
    +2
    Medicare is for retire people, I don't thing it has nothing to do with family planing or contraceptive. Is no a handout you pay for it, when you work is taking off your paycheck.
    The other thing is way to confusing and it has to do with religious extremist. If you don't take contraceptive and you pull out before you come isn't that the same, aren't you dismissing all those eggs? If a men jerk off, aren't he killing all those babies. I think some religion wants to see woman barefooted and pregnant. I don't believed in abortion but caramba! Provide all woman with contraceptives will you. Somebody has to support all those kids. I don't think the church is going to. I bet the pastor wife is take contraceptive, with the money from the collection plate.
  • JustBei... katyusk... 2012/12/14 23:26:39
    JustBeingAtPeace
    My bad "Medicaid" :-) Thank you and no, I have to agree with you the church will not/cannot take care of all those children no matter "how" much they wish they could.
  • KoAm 2012/12/14 00:30:42
    Other..
    KoAm
    >>>While I am completely pro-life, I am also Pro-choice .... I am "truely" confused<<<

    I would say so. A person CANNOT be pro-life and "pro-choice" at the same time.

    I'm assuming you are pro-life because you think abortion is the taking of human life. (Why else would you be pro-life?)

    As such, you CANNOT support legislation that allows those human lives to be killed. Not if you are as pro-life as you say you are.

    An analogy: You cannot claim to love all races, while at the same time supporting others' rights to discriminate against black people.

    The "I'm personally opposed but don't want to impose" argument is commonly used with abortion. It's a totally lame argument. Nobody uses that argument with regard to slavery or segregation. Why, then, should it be used in a life-and-death matter such as abortion?

    Save the "to each his/her own" thinking for non-lethal things, such as what color to paint a kitchen or what sorts of clothes to wear. That line of thinking does not cut it when it comes to protecting human life.

    You're either all-in when it comes to protecting unborn life, or you aren't. There's no fence to sit on here.

    One more thing: Your "I won't help you survive" argument is lame too. The biggest pro-life organization in the country, the Catho...

    >>>While I am completely pro-life, I am also Pro-choice .... I am "truely" confused<<<

    I would say so. A person CANNOT be pro-life and "pro-choice" at the same time.

    I'm assuming you are pro-life because you think abortion is the taking of human life. (Why else would you be pro-life?)

    As such, you CANNOT support legislation that allows those human lives to be killed. Not if you are as pro-life as you say you are.

    An analogy: You cannot claim to love all races, while at the same time supporting others' rights to discriminate against black people.

    The "I'm personally opposed but don't want to impose" argument is commonly used with abortion. It's a totally lame argument. Nobody uses that argument with regard to slavery or segregation. Why, then, should it be used in a life-and-death matter such as abortion?

    Save the "to each his/her own" thinking for non-lethal things, such as what color to paint a kitchen or what sorts of clothes to wear. That line of thinking does not cut it when it comes to protecting human life.

    You're either all-in when it comes to protecting unborn life, or you aren't. There's no fence to sit on here.

    One more thing: Your "I won't help you survive" argument is lame too. The biggest pro-life organization in the country, the Catholic Church, also has the country's best programs when it comes to helping new moms and their babies after it's saved both of them from the evil of abortion.

    Your claim that pro-lifers don't help after the babies are born is entirely false. That's not an opinion. It's a fact.
    (more)
  • KoAm KoAm 2012/12/14 00:32:24
    KoAm
    I also noticed, JustBeing, that nowhere in your post do you once mention the words "abstinence" or "adoption."
  • katyusk... KoAm 2012/12/14 01:30:11
    katyuska rojas
    +1
    I don't think Abstinence is healthy, that is good for a young teem but a married woman is not. Without contraceptive she will be pregnant every year. Do you suggest they have then and give then for adoption? Are they some kind of human factory?
  • JustBei... katyusk... 2012/12/14 23:07:50
    JustBeingAtPeace
    +1
    Abstence sounds wonderful in a fairy world but with hormones running wild and rampede not even the parents could control every second of every day. Adoption would be great but with the over flow of babies filling government and church facilities how about the ones waiting now, or the ones that never get adopted...you got it right a human baby factory where people can pick and choose a "baby" is ideal apparently....sad
  • JustBei... KoAm 2012/12/14 23:03:05
    JustBeingAtPeace
    I am not sure who ate "your" wheaties but I can garruntee it wasn't me, have a bad day? Sorry if so. How are you to tell me "I" can or cannot feel or believe in anything? Truth is, I do not like abortion Yep, I said it! I LOVE babies but (wait for it) BUT there would be LESS abortions IF more contrceptives were used! Then let's move on here, then you say the "churches" that advocate against abortion (which I understand their stance) AND against contraceptives "support" new moms and their babies? Hmm where do you live? I have personally seen and been witness too babies hungry and sick with these new moms not being able to produce or get help from even the government because they (wait for it.....) HAD a job! Oh and this is also fact, the church helps "theirs" first since you mentioned the "they help" part and I know because I "belonged" to a church for most of my life. *breathing* sigh...I am a person not someone you can attack by "your" beliefs. IF you care to give me your opinion I thank you for it, if you choose to try and tell me how "wrong" I am for "stating" the "facts" of what "I" can or cannot believe there is no conversation to be had...lol how can you tell me what I do or do not believe when you do not know me? My beliefs, Abortion-I do NOT like it but there are times...
    I am not sure who ate "your" wheaties but I can garruntee it wasn't me, have a bad day? Sorry if so. How are you to tell me "I" can or cannot feel or believe in anything? Truth is, I do not like abortion Yep, I said it! I LOVE babies but (wait for it) BUT there would be LESS abortions IF more contrceptives were used! Then let's move on here, then you say the "churches" that advocate against abortion (which I understand their stance) AND against contraceptives "support" new moms and their babies? Hmm where do you live? I have personally seen and been witness too babies hungry and sick with these new moms not being able to produce or get help from even the government because they (wait for it.....) HAD a job! Oh and this is also fact, the church helps "theirs" first since you mentioned the "they help" part and I know because I "belonged" to a church for most of my life. *breathing* sigh...I am a person not someone you can attack by "your" beliefs. IF you care to give me your opinion I thank you for it, if you choose to try and tell me how "wrong" I am for "stating" the "facts" of what "I" can or cannot believe there is no conversation to be had...lol how can you tell me what I do or do not believe when you do not know me? My beliefs, Abortion-I do NOT like it but there are times such as medical reasons to save the mothers life is necessary as well as certain situations. Contraceptives-prevent abortions and suffering for unexpected and unwelcomed as well as births of NO fault of the mother (such as rape/incest). Adoptions, there are SO many children waiting to be adopted in a lot of "church" and government facilities...where are the willing adoptees? Oh that's right they only want the "babies" but what of these children "no one" wants for one reason or another? Doesn't matter, your beliefs are yours and I am not here to try and "sway" you just as mine are my own. My "confusion" to be exact comes in on why complain about welfare if you want the babies born into such a life to begin with. Why not just stop complaining about giving out freebies or take the "lessor" price and allow contraceptives? Thanks for your time.
    (more)
  • realist 2012/12/14 00:04:52 (edited)
    I think____
    realist
    +1
    People feel that they shouldn't be on the hook to pay for someone else's bad judgement.

    I'm confused why people who make the decision to have sex then are so dam surprised when they get pregnant.

    I'm also confused as to why people think its a right to be able to have sex. If you can't afford the kid, or the contraception; don't have sex.

    That's where I think the issue stems from; as per normal its always what people are 'entitled' to and never what they are responsible for based on their personal circumstances.

    What you are talking about is essentially people paying tax so that those on welfare can have sex...
  • JustBei... realist 2012/12/14 23:16:36
    JustBeingAtPeace
    +1
    I agree with you on a lot of this! We shouldn't have to pay for contrceptives but if we do not my issue is this, doesn't it end up costing tax payers even more by "not" attempting to avoid further tax dollars for Welfare/medicaid? I completely understand your view on "responsabilty" being there's but in truth, how many responsible people do you know now a days? "If" we do not at least attempt to avoid it then we pay even more is what I see. Maybe I am wrong..just ugh..
  • realist JustBei... 2012/12/15 02:28:38 (edited)
    realist
    +1
    I know what you are saying, but that's why America and western society is in the peril its in. While being 'progressive' we create problems, they start small, people feel entitled to complain and society bends to keep them quiet. But rather then go back and say "that was inherently a bad decision which has resulted in a very real problem and accept that people have avoided responsibility through a misguided belief in entitlement" we say "aww, its going to cost money and be too hard to implement, so how can we work around it".

    America's reliance on illegal immigration to support the labor pool is a perfect example here.

    Essentially it starts small, but escalates quickly. And if you keep avoiding taking a step back and fixing it, even if it does cost more money for a while, is just going to result in an even bigger problem which maybe can't be fixed down the track.

    In the case of illegal immigration, sending them back would result in a fairly sizable loss to the turnover of many small business' and product prices would increase; so instead we give millions welfare and amnesty and it just makes America even more reliant on an unstable labor pool. More come, then not enough jobs exist for all the illegals and all the non-skilled Americans. Then unemployment rises and more p...



    I know what you are saying, but that's why America and western society is in the peril its in. While being 'progressive' we create problems, they start small, people feel entitled to complain and society bends to keep them quiet. But rather then go back and say "that was inherently a bad decision which has resulted in a very real problem and accept that people have avoided responsibility through a misguided belief in entitlement" we say "aww, its going to cost money and be too hard to implement, so how can we work around it".

    America's reliance on illegal immigration to support the labor pool is a perfect example here.

    Essentially it starts small, but escalates quickly. And if you keep avoiding taking a step back and fixing it, even if it does cost more money for a while, is just going to result in an even bigger problem which maybe can't be fixed down the track.

    In the case of illegal immigration, sending them back would result in a fairly sizable loss to the turnover of many small business' and product prices would increase; so instead we give millions welfare and amnesty and it just makes America even more reliant on an unstable labor pool. More come, then not enough jobs exist for all the illegals and all the non-skilled Americans. Then unemployment rises and more people end up on benefits, then the illegals want benefits. Society increases benefits and then more illegals and non-skilled Americans go "hey I can not work and still get 80% of my current income through benefits"...while others from across the border go "wtf if I can make it to America i don't have to do anything at all and I can make 100 times what I earn here". And thus it balloons, fast.

    So I think for allot of these issues which our society is experiencing for the first time in modern history; people need to be more willing to take a few hits to their pocket to fix some of the problems our need for change has created. That isn't the whole 'tax the rich more' argument; I think it needs to be a shared load as everyone contributed to the mistakes, so to should they fund the remedies.

    I think Americans (and the rest of western society) have to accept that sometimes their own national welfare has to be put first; and that just because someone is in a worse situation doesn't mean America should be dragged down to support them. Its harsh, but its the only way to ensure sustainable security and economy.
    (more)
  • JustBei... realist 2012/12/15 21:40:19
    JustBeingAtPeace
    +1
    I have to say you have certianly been the one to give me "great" info into this! Very "calm" and actually made sense! Thank you! Yes I understand what "you" are saying and sadly...it is harsh but reality...thank you again and your name fits! :-)
  • realist JustBei... 2012/12/16 00:58:23
    realist
    +1
    Thanks for the kind words, glad it helped :)
  • WATCHER realist 2012/12/16 03:56:46
    WATCHER
    Why should health care be restricted to morality issues?
  • realist WATCHER 2012/12/16 04:47:19
    realist
    Sorry please elaborate; if I get what you are saying I would ask, why should free health care cover non-basic privileges?
  • rand 2012/12/13 23:12:24 (edited)
    I think____
    rand
    +2
    Hypocrisy in moralizing for others knows few boundaries. I too am both pro-life and pro-choice. It's not difficult for me to understand that people oppose abortion and yet believe others must decide for themselves, valuing individual freedom in the Libertarian sense.
  • JustBei... rand 2012/12/14 23:24:18
    JustBeingAtPeace
    +1
    Thank you!
  • TheBadOne 2012/12/13 22:00:23
    Im in the same boat!!
    TheBadOne
    +2
    There's a segment of the population who wants to tell everyone how to live, but God forbid they give. Either its your problem or it isn't.
  • Rob Clary 2012/12/13 21:03:01 (edited)
    I think____
    Rob Clary
    +2
    It's hard logic, but in a perfect world, nobody kills their own baby, and after birth, they take care of the baby.
    The world is far from perfect.
    Given a choice of higher taxes or dead babies, I guess I go with just allowing the low-life dregs of society to continue to kill their babies.
  • JustBei... Rob Clary 2012/12/13 21:08:31
    JustBeingAtPeace
    +1
    It is very "hard" logic! Thank you for your opinion ;-)
  • WWZ Captain 2012/12/13 20:40:19
    Im in the same boat!!
    WWZ Captain
    +1
    I said this same thing months ago ! It's pretty much a bunch of "pie in the sky" delusional, right wing nut cases, who haven't, or, are incapable of, a 2 step thought process. Often times, "IDEALISTIC" and "REALISTIC" are in direct conflict with each other. Idealistically, people would be responsible, not have unprotected sex, and not "kill babies" (as one MENSA member below so eloquently put it.) Realistically, well, you tell me, how that's working for us?
  • JustBei... WWZ Cap... 2012/12/13 20:48:05
    JustBeingAtPeace
    +1
    Sucks being in the middle LOL I thought they said: Dems are Idealistic and Reps are Realistic! Ugh oh well. Very good points though and thank you!
  • WWZ Cap... JustBei... 2012/12/13 20:56:13
    WWZ Captain
    +1
    Like you said Just, they can't have it all ways ! They want the cake to sit there and look pretty on the table..AND..they want to cut the cake and eat a big slice ! LOL ! I said, maybe a year ago, if those complaining about "welfare" babies, PROMOTED welfare mothers to get abortions, there would be less welfare babies to pay welfare out to ! I was just called a racist, and dismissed ! Ironically, as black as I am, I was called the racist by some old lady as white as cotton !! It happens.
  • JustBei... WWZ Cap... 2012/12/13 21:06:10
    JustBeingAtPeace
    +1
    ROFL!! I have "No clue" as how that was even remotely "racist" omgoodness..yep it happens..unfortunately! Well I may not be right all the time but some people just refuse to accept being wrong "some" of the time and sounds like she found you!
  • WWZ Cap... JustBei... 2012/12/13 21:13:20
    WWZ Captain
    +1
    Yeah, I guess it can be seen as racist, if you just assume that only "blacks" are on welfare, and have babies, as such. living in L.A. I can assure her, that is not the case, in fact here, it's largely hispanics getting assistance, it is a weird thought process. As much as some people refuse to want to believe it, we're all in this together, as Frederick Douglass once said, the only way to keep a man in a ditch...is if you stay down in it with him, pulling him down.
  • JustBei... WWZ Cap... 2012/12/13 21:23:00
    JustBeingAtPeace
    As far as welfare domographics it would depend on "where" you look. If it is an area with more Whites then logical deduction would show it to be whites mostly on welfare and so on. I can see it would be Hispanics in LA just as it is more likely for Whites in KY or blacks in a different state. I completely agree with the qoute sad thing is, there are those that would "willingly" do so. I do see this as a "race" issue at all but a "human race" issue as a whole and until people stop pushing "their" views on how "others" live it will continue sadly.
  • WWZ Cap... JustBei... 2012/12/13 21:26:54
    WWZ Captain
    +1
    so sad. and scary.
  • Kozmo WWZ Cap... 2012/12/13 22:44:09
    Kozmo
    Dudley Laws was a black activist in Toronto, who made quite a stink when some young black fool in a stolen car tried to run down a police officer and was shot dead (ricochet off the door pillar into neck) by him or another one in the middle of the night.

    A police officer from Detroit made a public comment about when the kid drove towards the cop, "he graduated from joy-rider to attempted homicide…
    & finished with …oh, and by the way, I'm black."

    Dudley called HIM a racist, go figure
  • THE One and Only 2012/12/13 20:36:24
  • WATCHER THE One... 2012/12/16 03:56:03
    WATCHER
    Why should health care be restricted to morality issues?
  • THE One... WATCHER 2012/12/17 13:48:00
  • Huki68 2012/12/13 20:22:13
    I think____
    Huki68
    +3
    I am confused too I don't understand the human mentality...

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