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Do You Agree With the Supreme Court’s Health Care Decision?

ABC News U.S. 2012/06/28 14:46:55
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In a surprising 5-4 decision, the Supreme Court voted to uphold President Obama's health care law, commonly referred to as Obamacare. Do you agree with their decision?

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  • OneLastWord 2012/06/28 20:01:35 (edited)
    No
    OneLastWord
    +40
    Next, government will tell you, you have to buy this or that, or be$ fined.



    I wonder if this really goes into the toilet “financially” will the Democrats, Obama and the White House own up to this screw-up, or just blame Bush again, or Mitt Romney as it was his Massachusetts Governor-Ship health care bill that was used (mostly copied) by the 2009 Democratic controlled congress.



    The rest of the PORK in that bill was pure, liberal democratic, Obama radical W.H. socialistic crap.


    Added 7-3-2012
    Look at these people carrying signs Soda Head has posted here, they say "Protect the Law', yet these same people and liberals will be out in numbers protesting border patrol states that are trying to uphold the law and protest their borders and send illegal’s back to where they came from until they come into the country legally. But we know what that’s all about, right?
    All votes get counted if they are Democratic votes.

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  • amazinggrace 2012/06/29 15:04:41
    No
    amazinggrace
    +2
    No wonder 12,000 of Americas richest people have opted to give up their citizenship in the past two years. They will save a bundle on taxes while the rest of us pay the piper.
  • phil white amazing... 2012/06/29 15:15:47
    phil white
    An American over on the Russian Women Discussion board objected to my suggesting to the Russians that they put high tax rates on the very rich.
    Next time I'll suggest our tribe banish anyone who spends more than $2,000,000 a year.
    Let them live alone in the forest of move to Singapore.
  • taitaFa... amazing... 2012/06/29 17:39:26
    taitaFalcon23
    we already do; starting with the top of the GOP ticket who would be president. He offshores his vast wealth and supports regulating yours
  • Marvelous Wildfire 2012/06/29 14:53:32
    No
    Marvelous Wildfire
    +2
    I believe those who vote for ObamaKare in the first place without even reading the whole thing, should be sent to a maximum security prison for the rest of their life. for treason.

    Did any of you ObamaKare supporter notice, that the man-child in the White House didn't use his cadre of "Czars of Failure", to actually try and improve the tiny VA medical system before destroying one of the best medical systems in the world? No?
    Hmmmm, those who can reason, would wonder "Why not?"

    What those who *believe* in ObamaKare and the first Affirmative Action President (as well as leprechauns) haven't the intelligence to grasp, is that there are *NO FREE LUNCHES*: Someone always has to pay.

    So to any ObamaKare supporter that may be reading, emote on this: If you had a job, and your employer told you on Friday: "Starting on Monday, you will have more responsibilities and more rules to follow, penalties will be imposed for failure to follow the Labyrinth of rules and regulations, oh, and you'll be receiving a 30% reduction in pay as well."
    What would you do?

    I personally know 5 doctors that have been preparing their offices to be closed should ObamaKare be allowed by the court.

    Ever work at a "Welfare Hospital"? I have.
    It use to infuriate me, to see an ambulance roll in, because of ...













    I believe those who vote for ObamaKare in the first place without even reading the whole thing, should be sent to a maximum security prison for the rest of their life. for treason.

    Did any of you ObamaKare supporter notice, that the man-child in the White House didn't use his cadre of "Czars of Failure", to actually try and improve the tiny VA medical system before destroying one of the best medical systems in the world? No?
    Hmmmm, those who can reason, would wonder "Why not?"

    What those who *believe* in ObamaKare and the first Affirmative Action President (as well as leprechauns) haven't the intelligence to grasp, is that there are *NO FREE LUNCHES*: Someone always has to pay.

    So to any ObamaKare supporter that may be reading, emote on this: If you had a job, and your employer told you on Friday: "Starting on Monday, you will have more responsibilities and more rules to follow, penalties will be imposed for failure to follow the Labyrinth of rules and regulations, oh, and you'll be receiving a 30% reduction in pay as well."
    What would you do?

    I personally know 5 doctors that have been preparing their offices to be closed should ObamaKare be allowed by the court.

    Ever work at a "Welfare Hospital"? I have.
    It use to infuriate me, to see an ambulance roll in, because of a baby . . . with diaper rash. 8+ hour waits in the Emergency rooms were the norm, because of such "emergencies" and "emergencies" like them.
    Now, the whole ObamaKare medical system, will be the same.
    What you will see; You will go in to the Emergency Room with a broken leg, and I will go in with a a terrible hangnail. But if I got in there before you, you'll wait until after me . . . or I'll file a racism grievance against he hospital. (Since neither is life threatening, they'll take me first to avoid the longterm aggravation.)

    What people like Obama who has never held a position of responsibility before, and dumbasses like him, can't grasp: The Government can regulate, restrict, require, summons, fine, sanction and compel . . . but they *CAN'T* make the people, who happen to be doctors, practice medicine.

    But let's say, that not a single doctor closed their office, not one.
    What happens when *TENS OF MILLIONS* are added to the patient load?
    Yeah, quality of care *WILL* suffer, and the waits will become much longer for procedures and treatment. Cancer case that were survivable before, will die now . . . like in Canada and England today. (Did anyone notice that the politicians and their families won't be covered by ObamaKare? If it was really as good as the dumbasses were told to believe, based on nothing, why would they want their loved ones to receive inferior care?)

    How many small businesses, will go out of business now because they can't afford to meet the ObamaKare requirements of supplying medical insurance to their employees?
    (Apparently the unemployment rates weren't already high enough to suit Obama.)

    Where's the *MONEY* to finance ObamaKare going to come from?
    No, "the rich" will probably simply go else where where the tax burden is less: Like John Kerry did when he bought his new Yacht a few years ago.
    (more)
  • toldyaso Marvelo... 2012/06/29 16:23:31
    toldyaso
    Blah blah blah!


    Article 1 Section 8

    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
  • Marvelo... toldyaso 2012/06/29 16:39:24
    Marvelous Wildfire
    +1
    Just because you *CAN* do something, doesn't make it any less stupid for you to do it.

    You can ride a bicycle off the roof of a 2 story house if you wish . . . that doesn't make it intelligent to do so.

    It's still only dumbasses that support ObamaKare.
  • Bali 2012/06/29 14:46:12
    No
    Bali
    +3
    do you think any of the people in the picture holding the signs have ever paid for anything? gubmint leeches and blood sucking parasites is all i see.
  • polkastria Bali 2012/06/29 14:56:44
    polkastria
    +2
    Hum.. I see a group of older adults, probably senior citizens, and at least one has a cane.. I'm willing to bet they've paid their fair share in life.
  • Bali polkastria 2012/06/29 14:57:43
    Bali
    +3
    take off the blinders
  • polkastria Bali 2012/06/29 15:03:47
    polkastria
    what blinders? Tell me why you think you see a bunch of.. how did you put it... "gubmint leeches and blood sucking parasites"
  • Bali polkastria 2012/06/29 15:07:57
    Bali
    +2
    thanks for proving my point, imbecile.
  • polkastria Bali 2012/06/29 15:11:05
    polkastria
    No facts, no answer to my question, AND name calling...

    And you call me an imbecile. LOL!
  • Bali polkastria 2012/06/29 17:27:29
    Bali
    +1
    yawn.......you are boring me to death. bye bye
  • Greg Bali 2012/06/29 16:05:45
    Greg
    Hey, man. Marginalizing, poisoning the well, and ad hominems only hurt the cause. Please try to stick with the facts and we can win this argument using logic and reason, not fallacies such as the one you are presenting here. Let our opponents stoop to that level. We need to rise above.
  • polkastria Greg 2012/06/29 16:11:38
    polkastria
    +1
    Hey Greg, what about a reasoned discussion with both sides using facts and logic and no one calling anyone names from the get go? No one NEEDS to stoop to the level that Bali started at in this post but some folks never rise from that level on both sides of discussion.

    I'd say all sides have a few folks they'd like to gag and move away from the microphone on this issue.
  • Greg polkastria 2012/06/29 22:15:36
    Greg
    Agreed. Both sides want to make sure that health care gets better, we only disagree on how to accomplish that goal. Calling each other names or questioning each other's motives is counterproductive.
  • polkastria Greg 2012/06/30 01:26:23
    polkastria
    True! Hey look.. a real conversation...

    Okay I'd like a single payer plan.. universal healthcare because I think it would cost more to get going, but would lower costs and improve real care in the long run. If Medicine stops being about the money and becomes about the care.. it helps encourage preventative care and real solutions for long term care instead of the "just take these pills for the rest of your life" kind of responses we get right now from our medical community.

    And you? What would you like to see?
  • Greg polkastria 2012/06/30 02:05:19
    Greg
    +1
    On the surface that seems like a good idea. However, every time it has been tried (not necessarily in healthcare, but there are examples of that, too) it has failed. What has been shown to work is free market forces where creativity and innovation are driven by competition and the natural human tendency to do what is best for oneself. It sounds like greed and self-centeredness, but in a society it breeds true inter-dependence that creates more wealth for all than a centrally-managed program ever could because the centrally managed program breeds co-dependence. People get to vote daily, even hourly with their wallets rather than every four years for political offices, or even never for appointed bureaucrats, which makes this system much more efficient, flexible, and organic, which means lower costs and better care.

    In short, I prefer truly voluntary interaction between individuals and groups as opposed to management by a central government. If any of the individuals choose not to cooperate, the only way to put them back in line is through coercion, which is extremely ineffective at conflict resolution, because it tends to escalate conflict. I highly recommend Dr. Mary Ruwart's book, "Healing Our Nation" which can be found online.
  • polkastria Greg 2012/06/30 03:13:46
    polkastria
    Took a quick look around for the book.. found two titled Healing Our World.. but with different subtitles by that author. I will take another look around or see if I can find them cheap somewhere.

    I think for me, the problem with letting the free market sort it all out is that it only works if everyone has access to all the information available and in far too many cases, that doesn't happen.
    As long as people are in it for the money they will hide the facts to make money.. like the tobacco industry. And try to eliminate any competitor in any way.. like anti Marijuana legislation. As long as they can feed people bull about the Dangers of Pot and the idea that it's a gateway drug and it's hard to find real information about the issue that isn't obviously biased in one way or another... the industry with the money behind it wins.

    That is also the case with prescription drugs where the side effects are hidden or down played to get people to buy the product but not really tell them the risks. As in, "Sure this ADHD medication will help your child concentrate in school and those heart damaging effects.. well they don't happen to everyone now do they? The news just exaggerates those stories to make news."

    If i could trust people to care about each other more than their pocketbook.. I'd be all for a Free Market approach but money motivates and I don't see away around that.
  • Greg polkastria 2012/06/30 03:27:30
    Greg
    +1
    How do big tobacco and anti-marijuana people accomplish this hiding of the facts? My answer is by big government distortion of the market. What we have that has allowed the big tobacco and anti-marijuana hysteria is a result not of true free market capitalism, but of crony corporatism. Both were as a result of politician's pockets getting lined by special interests. Take government out of the equation and the distortion goes away. Did lying ever do any good in a schoolyard? No, the liars always got caught. Liars only get away with their lies when there is a politician who also figures out a way to get himself re-elected by allowing, encouraging, or even amplifying the lies and silencing the opposition by the use of the aforementioned counter-productive tactics.

    You can find Dr. Ruwart's book free online. As for the different subtitles, I'm not sure if she's revised it over time or whatever, but at any rate, what she has posted at www.ruwart.com/healing is what I have read myself. I can also recommend "Why Government Doesn't Work" by Harry Browne. I borrowed that one from my local library.
  • polkastria Greg 2012/06/30 04:00:51
    polkastria
    You clearly went to different schools than I did.. liars got away with plenty and constant troublemakers were slapped on the wrist and written off as pointless to deal with while other kids payed higher penalties for the same infraction.

    And I do agree that the government has had a very large hand in the tobacco and marijuana issues.. too much so, and now if we want to try to change the laws we have much more to overcome thanks to all the scare tactics they employed.

    So lets say we do have more of a free market approach to medical issues. How do we insure that the people get free access to ALL the important information so that they can make a real decision for themselves? How do we make sure that information is accurate? How do we make sure that those that disagree with the information have the ability to come forward freely?

    I Live in an apartment complex. it's not great but it's not bad.. I've lived in worse and better.. it's pretty middle of the road but it's in a good location so here I am almost 5 years later.. BUT if you look on line the place is a nightmare with bugs and crackheads and illegal activities in every corner of the place.. the management is horrible and the maintenance workers haven't a clue how to change a light-bulb, let alone take care of the place. I kno...

    You clearly went to different schools than I did.. liars got away with plenty and constant troublemakers were slapped on the wrist and written off as pointless to deal with while other kids payed higher penalties for the same infraction.

    And I do agree that the government has had a very large hand in the tobacco and marijuana issues.. too much so, and now if we want to try to change the laws we have much more to overcome thanks to all the scare tactics they employed.

    So lets say we do have more of a free market approach to medical issues. How do we insure that the people get free access to ALL the important information so that they can make a real decision for themselves? How do we make sure that information is accurate? How do we make sure that those that disagree with the information have the ability to come forward freely?

    I Live in an apartment complex. it's not great but it's not bad.. I've lived in worse and better.. it's pretty middle of the road but it's in a good location so here I am almost 5 years later.. BUT if you look on line the place is a nightmare with bugs and crackheads and illegal activities in every corner of the place.. the management is horrible and the maintenance workers haven't a clue how to change a light-bulb, let alone take care of the place. I know it's not true and I know that the place got bought out and a number of fired people have posted anonymous reviews of the place as a way to get back at the new management. I know this because of the timing on the really negative reviews but others are just going to see the page and run like mice.

    It's a lie but it's the way of the free market... People seeing it don't have all the necessary information and can't make a truly informed opinion. If we can't have honesty about an apartment complex.. how can we have it about something like a new drug or a doctor's care?
    (more)
  • Greg polkastria 2012/06/30 23:59:50
    Greg
    Liars might have gotten away with their lies to the teachers, but us kids knew what was what, didn't we?
  • polkastria Greg 2012/07/02 15:07:20
    polkastria
    And what good did that do? All it proved was that lairs get away with it then just like they do now. if you have money or know how to suck up or are just good at it.. lairs can get away with it.
  • Greg polkastria 2012/07/02 16:48:00 (edited)
    Greg
    Did you want to play with the liar? Did you trust the liar in the future? If you really think about it, the liars may not have gotten punished by authorities (or even rewarded), but once trust is lost, it is very difficult to participate in the currency of whatever social order you are in. I digress, though, because this is an analogy and they all break down somewhere.

    From above:
    And I do agree that the government has had a very large hand in the tobacco and marijuana issues.. too much so, and now if we want to try to change the laws we have much more to overcome thanks to all the scare tactics they employed.
    And all because a well-connected businessman used the government against the people. Hemp was poised to take over for wood in the paper industry, so what did they do, but use government funds to demonize it. This would not have been possible if it weren't for the aforementioned shady tactics and a government willing to piss on the constitution (and a populace willing to let them). Again, the answer to this problem is less government, not more.

    How do we [ensure] that the people get free access to ALL the important information so that they can make a real decision for themselves?

    That's easy: by leaving it up to them and their personal physician, who has a vested interest ...



    Did you want to play with the liar? Did you trust the liar in the future? If you really think about it, the liars may not have gotten punished by authorities (or even rewarded), but once trust is lost, it is very difficult to participate in the currency of whatever social order you are in. I digress, though, because this is an analogy and they all break down somewhere.

    From above:
    And I do agree that the government has had a very large hand in the tobacco and marijuana issues.. too much so, and now if we want to try to change the laws we have much more to overcome thanks to all the scare tactics they employed.

    And all because a well-connected businessman used the government against the people. Hemp was poised to take over for wood in the paper industry, so what did they do, but use government funds to demonize it. This would not have been possible if it weren't for the aforementioned shady tactics and a government willing to piss on the constitution (and a populace willing to let them). Again, the answer to this problem is less government, not more.

    How do we [ensure] that the people get free access to ALL the important information so that they can make a real decision for themselves?


    That's easy: by leaving it up to them and their personal physician, who has a vested interest in providing the best possible care, or else he won't be in business very long. How do we ensure that the people get free access to the correct information from a government who has been known to purposefully lie? You don't. Which prompts the question, "why would we want to give more trust to government employees than we would want to give to private employees?" And, a follow-up to that question, "what makes a government employee more noble or less likely to be incompetent or corrupt?" I'll answer those questions. To the former, we wouldn't. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Also, the phrase, "close enough for government work," exists for a reason, which leads me to the latter. Simply put, if your choices are to produce well or go hungry, you are going to be more likely to produce well. If you will not be held accountable for your actions (a condition government employees enjoy all too well) then you are actually LESS likely to do your job with competence and integrity. Deceit, corruption, and manipulation are all forms of initiation of force. The libertarian prime directive is "never initiate force." Therefore, these things are against the prime directive. Once force is initiated, it is permissible to resist that force, using as much force as is necessary. That is why no matter who you talk to on the Libertarian/anarcho-capitalist side of things, we all agree that wrongdoers should be punished for wrongdoing. Libertarians insists that this is one of the very few roles of a legitimate government.

    Every problem we have in this country can be traced back not to a true free market, but to government coming in and tipping the scales unfairly and taking away true free market forces. A true free market regulates commerce much better than any centrally planned system ever could. We have not had a true free market in this country in a very long time, if ever. What we have is crony corporatism that is being CALLED capitalism where well connected businessmen continue to get government to point guns at their competition and unfairly take away their ability to compete. Obamacare is simply more of the same, expanding the role of the ineffective, incompetent, and corrupt government rather than minimizing it so that true free market forces can do their job.

    When you're done with Ruwart and Browne, I would highly recommend Ludwig Von Mises. Mises is a little dry and hard to read, but very good economic information.
    (more)
  • polkastria Greg 2012/07/02 22:09:36
    polkastria
    That's fine for those that can afford a doctor.. what about the rest of the people that can only go to the doctor when they are almost ready for the hospital?

    And I'm not an anarchist at all.. I'm too good at being on the wrong side of the people with guns to think that letting them have their way makes any sense at all. I'm not a libertarian since they get wishy washy on things like abortion rights and thats a big deal for me.

    I like the Green party like I used to like the Natural Law Party.. lovely idea but too flaky for the average American voter so.. I'll vote for them in local elections, but won't shoot myself in the foot and vote for them in the big elections.
  • Greg polkastria 2012/07/03 00:06:35
    Greg
    There have always been charity hospitals and doctors would do pro bono work, or take something in trade. Chickens is usually the go-to example of the latter. Dr. Ruwart would definitely be the best place to go for a more in-depth answer as she is a medical doctor and has seen first hand the changes to our medical system, for the worse, in the last 30 or more years.

    How are Libertarians wishy-washy on abortion rights? While there is the "Libertarians for Life" caucus which states that protection of liberty extends to the unborn, most Libertarians are steadfastly pro-choice. In fact, one of the slogans is, "I'm pro-choice on EVERYTHING." Now, if you're pro-life, then I can see your point, but if you are pro-choice, then there is no disconnect with the Libertarian Party. The only possible criticism I could think of is that currently there is bigger fish to fry than pro-choice, especially since Roe v Wade has made this country de facto pro-choice. Yes, I know Ron Paul is pro-life, but he is a Republican and it is one of the reasons he left the Libertarian Party.
  • polkastria Greg 2012/07/03 07:48:52
    polkastria
    Libertarians I've met in RL tend to lean toward the Pro Life side of things.. Maybe it's just me as I'm completely Pro Choice and I always seem to trip over the other side.
  • Bali Greg 2012/06/29 17:28:14
    Bali
    hey man, go pound sand. mind your own business.
  • Greg Bali 2012/06/29 18:59:39
    Greg
    Not when it is hurting a cause I stand for! Is that your true goal?
  • Bali Greg 2012/06/29 19:44:00
    Bali
    what cause would that be, man?
  • Greg Bali 2012/06/29 19:52:30
    Greg
    Well, unless I'm mistaken you are against Obamacare as I am. It's either that, or your just an ass.
  • Bali Greg 2012/06/29 20:16:04
    Bali
    i would say yes on both counts. so whats your point? i am a little under the weather from yesterdays "ruling". maybe thats it Greg............
  • Greg Bali 2012/06/29 21:01:03
    Greg
    +1
    My point is that it my be cathartic to be an ass, but it hurts the cause. Makes us look like a bunch of conspiracy theorists.
  • Bali Greg 2012/06/30 20:51:30
    Bali
    you point was taken 5 replies ago. care to continue or leave it alone?
  • Greg Bali 2012/07/02 16:49:09
    Greg
    You asked.
  • Marvelo... Greg 2012/06/29 17:46:15
    Marvelous Wildfire
    No, facts, logic and reason will *NOT* "win this argument" or ObamaKare would never have made it to a vote.
    Heck, if facts, logic and reason had any power in Washington, Obama would still be a community organizer in Chicago . . . well maybe not, more likely just in section 8 housing on welfare.
  • Greg Marvelo... 2012/06/29 18:58:27
    Greg
    You and your ilk make us look like a bunch of kooks. Is that your true goal?
  • Marvelo... Greg 2012/06/29 21:02:47
    Marvelous Wildfire
    Why do you believe, that stating the facts, makes you look like a kook?
  • Greg Marvelo... 2012/06/29 21:20:36
    Greg
    +1
    Now, you can't have it both ways. Either you are stating facts and presenting logical arguments, or you are spelling Obamacare with a K (why?) and belittling the idea of presenting logical arguments. Pick one, preferably the former, and stick with it.
  • Marvelo... Greg 2012/06/29 21:29:20
    Marvelous Wildfire
    Actually, I'm not so narrow-minded, that I can't recognize *BOTH* to be correct.
    ObamaKare, I believe, will actually have worse negative effects for the USA and its society, than WWII.

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