Quantcast

Do you believe Obamacare will ultimately lower healthcare costs?

L.A. Times 2012/12/05 18:00:00
You!
Add Photos & Videos
Consumers saved nearly $1.5 billion in 2011 as a result of rules in President Obama's healthcare law that limit what insurance companies can spend on expenses unrelated to medical care, including profit, a new analysis shows.

Much of those savings — an estimated $1.1 billion — came in rebates to consumers required because insurers had exceeded the required limits. The study by the New York-based Commonwealth Fund also suggests that the Affordable Care Act forced insurers to become more efficient by limiting their administrative expenses, a key goal of the 2010 law.

obama

Read More: http://www.latimes.com/health/la-na-insurance-savi...

Add a comment above

Top Opinion

  • DMC4196 2012/12/05 21:46:52
    No
    DMC4196
    +38
    Name one thing the government has EVER lowered the costs of. The current government model exists to bleed the public of their liberties, finances, morale, and property.

Sort By
  • Most Raves
  • Least Raves
  • Oldest
  • Newest
Opinions

  • Butterfly AL 2012/12/08 07:39:35
    Butterfly
    +1
    Yes, and yes. I just love reading posts of people, who understand. Those others? I want to smack, up side their head. Maybe, rattle some cobwebs off their brain? If there IS one in there, at all!
  • Golden Panther 2012/12/07 21:41:03
    No
    Golden Panther
    +6
    Lower the costs? What the hell are you smoking and is it covered under obumavichcare? The out of pocket costs to obtain even mediocre care will at least triple. Then will come the increase in every tax known to the cretins, as well as new ones they can conjure up in their wet dreams. This communist administration has no intention or desire to lower taxes...the more they steal from Americans, the more they can spend on entitlement cheats, illegal aliens, Muslim countries, and themselves.
  • bigfoot 2012/12/07 21:15:30
    Yes
    bigfoot
    +3
    To all my Liberal friends.You all know how Selfish,Cheap and Low Information filled our RWNJ adversaries are.I urge you to educate them,if possible,that they are and will continue to pay for all Health Care uninsured citizens and non-citizens through taxes and healthcare charges.Without Obamacare.As soon as they realize without Obamacare they are paying for all those who use medical services and don't pay,I assure you the RWNJs will love Obamacare.SSSSHHHHH- they may even sign up to use it themself.Besure to inform them,that Obamacare will not cover their Extenze,Viagra,Red Bull and any of their "dirty" pocket readers they pick up at the same time every month with their fellow church goers at their local Post Office.
  • Butterfly bigfoot 2012/12/08 07:41:06
    Butterfly
    +1
    Fool, and foolish.
    Taxmageddon will be the largest tax increase EVER to hit Americans. It’s nearly $500 billion in one year, starting January 1. the expected tax increases per person just for 2013:

    • Families with an average income of $70,662: tax increase of $4,138
    • Baby boomers with an average income of $95,099: tax increase of $4,223
    • Low-income workers with an average income of $24,757: tax increase of $1,207
    • Millennials with an average income of $23,917: tax increase of $1,099
    • Retirees with an average income of $42,553: tax increase of $857
  • bigfoot Butterfly 2012/12/08 16:59:33
    bigfoot
    Unless you and your RWNJ friends ask the Two percent to pay their fair share.As usual you only tell a fraction of the truth and story.Or could it be you only know a fraction of the story?Oh! Where are those jobs you and the RWNJs promise to create in 2010 after working night and day on the problem?And why with the fiscal cliff approaching did Mitch filabuster his own bill? I am quite comfortable and honored to be called a Fool by the likes of you.
  • Stop Hillary 2016 2012/12/07 20:26:23 (edited)
    No
    Stop Hillary 2016
    +4
    The L.A time is just as bad as the New York times and in the tank for Obama.

    Hell no
  • EllЕ 2012/12/07 20:14:07 (edited)
    No
    EllЕ
    +3
    Is this photo doctored? LOL

    photo doctored lol

    photo doctored lol
  • the fuze 2012/12/07 19:54:59
    No
    the fuze
    +2
    It might lower healthcare costs, but it will just raise my expenses somewhere else, so what's the point?
  • Butterfly the fuze 2012/12/08 07:42:19 (edited)
    Butterfly
    +1
    No, it won't lower costs.
  • the fuze Butterfly 2012/12/09 02:31:17
    the fuze
    It wasn't even a solid "might".
  • chaoskitty123 2012/12/07 19:44:04
    No
    chaoskitty123
    +1
    The L.A. Times at least included some information this time instead of asking a question and not even tell you what the story was about.

    Yes, the study found that savings had been made because it is reporting only about savings... it did not continue research over the entire program to include cost increases which Obama himself has admitted has happened. Obama has already removed over a third of Obamacare himself admitting he was wrong about the costs and that the things he removed were going to cost between two to ten times more than we were told... and further cuts to the program by Obama are expected to continue in his second term.

    The Affordable Care Act cannot work because Obama gave the main culprits behind high health care costs exemptions for ten years. Big Pharma, medical technologies and corporate owned healthcare all got exemptions from Obamacare so they are free to continue raising costs which is not what Obama promised when he was running for President in 2008... then, behind closed doors where not even his supporters could see, he entered a secret deal with Big Pharma only weeks after being elected. Harry Reid then followed doing the same thing with corporate owned healthcare.

    Whenever an investigation of any hospital is conducted by the government, millions o...

















































    The L.A. Times at least included some information this time instead of asking a question and not even tell you what the story was about.

    Yes, the study found that savings had been made because it is reporting only about savings... it did not continue research over the entire program to include cost increases which Obama himself has admitted has happened. Obama has already removed over a third of Obamacare himself admitting he was wrong about the costs and that the things he removed were going to cost between two to ten times more than we were told... and further cuts to the program by Obama are expected to continue in his second term.

    The Affordable Care Act cannot work because Obama gave the main culprits behind high health care costs exemptions for ten years. Big Pharma, medical technologies and corporate owned healthcare all got exemptions from Obamacare so they are free to continue raising costs which is not what Obama promised when he was running for President in 2008... then, behind closed doors where not even his supporters could see, he entered a secret deal with Big Pharma only weeks after being elected. Harry Reid then followed doing the same thing with corporate owned healthcare.

    Whenever an investigation of any hospital is conducted by the government, millions of dollars in fraud ooze to the surface. Claims that people not paying their bills cause higher prices are revealed as lies with only around 2% of the cost overruns being proven a result of people not paying their bills.

    Big Pharma gave Obama a promise of $80 billion in rebates which many people have already noticed higher prescription costs and even over the counter drug costs have jumped dramatically over the past four years with some medications costing upwards of 50% more which the media is not reporting... hut when you get your prescription filled using insurance or medicare / medicaid, you don't even notice the higher cost unless you ask them to tell you what the cost will be without insurance.

    Some say they are free to raise costs regardless... they would not be if Obama had honored his 2008 campaign promises as Medicare / Medicaid alone loses over $65 billion a year in fraud which is a key point as he was going to MAKE THEM ACCOUNTABLE then struck a deal to exempt them behind closed doors only weeks after being elected.

    High healthcare costs are the reason we can't afford healthcare and it's being driven into bankruptcy.

    The answer is reducing the medical patent term to 2 years instead of 20 so that retailers like Walmart, Target and Walgreenes can offer more on their $4.00 plans which save people like myself hundreds of dollars a month. My normal payment, out of pocket, for my prescriptions is less than $50.00 at Walmart. But if I had to pay for the name brand retail versions, it would cost me $768.00 a month which I can't afford and it would make me dependent on insurance or Medicare to help. But at less than $50.00, I pay out of pocket with no insurance or Medicare needed and while generics aren't what everyone needs, many generics are made from different parts of the same components. It's like an orange... orange juice and most things derived from oranges come from the pulp inside because it is sweeter. However, the peel has most of the vitamin C in an orange and anything made with the peel is going to be loaded with vitamin C where the pulp inside has very little by comparison... but the peel is bitter. Walmart uses the peel and name brands use the pulp and because it's a pill... you really don't notice if it's bitter or not unless you chew it or leave it in your mouth.

    Medical technologies companies like GE charge $25 million or something like a catscan machine that costs them less than $30,000.00 to build. Even if they doubled the price, they turn a profit and more hospitals, doctors clinics and other healthcare providers worldwide could afford them even in poor communities. But they refuse to do this and because of their medical patents on the technology, they control all technology similar to what they hold a patent on so that an entirely new medical process must be created to compete and the manufacturers doing this then charge $24 million to be just a little cheaper than GE.

    Obamacare really does not address these factors and without the public option, it cannot work... even supporters of Obamacare were threatening to vote him out of office if he tossed the public option because Obamacare was dead without it... then he did it and they focused on everyone now having universal healthcare to find some way to support it.

    Look, the system is in need of change and new ideas to make it work.

    But to begin, you must start with reforming the FDA with rules like the NCAA employs in sports where no one working for the pharmaceutical industry could work for the FDA and if they did, everything they get must be reported and within guidelines as in the NCAA, fans and supporters cannot even give a player a notebook without risking the player being suspended... while the NCAA goes overboard, it would be a great system to place over the FDA to limit corruption and abuse.

    An example... researchers have developed dozens of cures for cancer spending billions and using their expenses to justify passing the cost on to US consumers and patients in need of healthcare. They then use their wealth to buy off the FDA to refuse approving these new cures because Big Pharma makes so much from chemo and radiation here. But other nations won't pay the high costs of chemo and radiation treatments so that these companies sell their new treatments in these countries for a fraction of what chemo and radiation cost. You could literally take a vacation to Europe, pay for cancer treatment there, save your life and return home for less than what chemo and radiation cost.

    Then you go after the hospitals and pharmacies charging $5.00 for an aspirin or filling fake prescriptions then buying the med's back at the back door for 10% of what the prescriptions cost the US government and insurance companies. There's no money for this right now because the government is bought off by Big Pharma and corporate owned healthcare to purposely underfund such operations.

    What most who support Obamacare don't understand is that many who oppose it do so knowing the system needs reformed and that corporations have been stealing us blind for decades. But a key component for this has been the government being practically braindead when it comes to their involvement writing blank checks and trying to stop private insurance companies from fighting back against these thieves which is why often they refuse to pay for treatments and med's that are known to be used by healthcare providers when they aren't necessary.

    Healthcare reform has to be handled by people who understand healthcare... Obama does not and proof of this is that Obamacare, Romneycare and bush's healthcare reform plans were all written by people using advisers provided by Big Pharma who practically wrote the legislation for them... thus, the reason there is so many similar elements to a point some of it is word for word identical to one another.

    Would you want people on death row writing legislation or advising our leaders what to write in regards to punishment for people who commit murder?

    Of course not and yet, almost none of our leaders know anything about healthcare and are listening to advice from people provided to them by the healthcare lobby.

    Walmart is a big evil corporation and yet, their $4.00 prescription plan saves consumers tens of millions dollars each year... combined with the other retailers doing this, they're saving us hundreds of millions of dollars... Capitalism vs Capitalism and all we need the government to do in "incorporate" these Capitalist efforts into healthcare reform to increase what the $4.00 plans can offer.

    I save roughly $718.00 a month thanks to Walmart and pay for my prescriptions out of my own pocket... less than $50.00.

    With plans like these, millions of Americans could drop their insurance to backup status for medication that isn't yet available for $4.00 and taxes collected for Medicare and Medicaid could be greatly reduced lessening the burden on taxpayers while preserving the government healthcare system for decades to come with just one simple change.

    Shut down government healthcare completely where the government pays directly for it. Instead, let the government pay for the insurance policies through subsidies so that working poor qualify with the government paying part of their insurance and they pay the rest based on income. Those who can't afford it, the government would buy it for them so that even a homeless man on the street who never enters a government office might have an insurance policy which the hospital could access with just a bit of information like their SS# using a computer.

    The problem with government paying for healthcare directly is that our leaders know nothing about healthcare, the people working within the system handling Medicare and Medicaid know nothing about healthcare and criminals who know this exploit the system knowing more about healthcare than anyone in the government or the bureaucracy managing government healthcare... because many of the criminals are themselves doctors and pharmacists who exploit the poor or leeches who need money to commit crimes where they are provided false prescriptions.

    Private insurance companies do go overboard and they are greedy, but the fact is they have an army of investigators which the federal government could exploit by shutting down their own operations and work in partnership with private insurers raking advantage of their greed and deep pockets to hire investigators costing taxpayers nothing.

    I created an idea I call SIP's where the government stops paying for healthcare directly and retrains their workers in the healthcare system to manage payments to private insurance companies to insure all Americans. By ending government paying directly for healthcare, we save that $65 billion lost to fraud each year immediately. The workers job is not just to see that the insurance policies are paid for, but would act as a reporting agency where Americans could call in to report fraud by their insurance providers if they don't honor their contracts. The SIP's agency then sends in representatives to investigate bringing with them a member of the IRS so that if the insurer puts up a fight to prevent them from reviewing records and refuses to correct their refusal to honor a legitimate claim... an audit is done in an effort to eliminate greed from the system as best as possibly can be done. Likewise, if the insurance provider, using their investigators, discovers fraud on the part of healthcare providers... they don't fight the claim, they call SIP's and the same agents go visit the healthcare providers and if they run into a brick wall... an audit is done on the healthcare provider in an effort to eliminate fraud.

    SIP's stands for Supplimental Insurance Payments as it would be based on income in regard to how much you receive and it would include government aid so that people receiving aid equal or near what the working poor recieve... will be treated just the same. SIP's would include only one huge change in the law as it would not require you to buy insurance, but it would require that everyone pay their damn medical bills or healthcare providers can take you to court like any other debt. Thus, you create an incentive for people to buy insurance but no requirements to do so.

    With Big Pharma and corporate owned healthcare basically exempt and we see the healthcare lobby went from supporting Democrats just before Obamacare was passed to overwhelmingly supporting Republicans after it was passed... it's easy to see they manipulated Obama because in the beginning, they will make hundreds of billions in additional profits by Obama's own admission... but then, costs will be reduced on the backside as we get closer to that ten year exemption coming to an end. that will not happen as the healthcare lobby will make it's money and then use everything in their power to kill Obamacare before it costs them a dime.

    Thus, Obamacare may not even last a decade and the reason why Republican leaders didn't do a damn thing to repeal Obamacare over the past two years (breaking their promises to do so) is Big Pharma basically told them not to... they're raking in record profits thanks to Obamacare and they don't want it to end for now. But once it actually starts cutting into their profits, Obamacare will be killed as Liberal Democrats like Nancy Pelosi were among the biggest recipients of healthcare lobby money before Obamacare was passed because Big Pharma wanted it to pass... and they'll pay off leftwing leaders like Pelosi to back down and make excuses when Obamacare is eventually killed.

    I make no excuses for the healthcare lobby nor am I blindly attacking Obamacare... I simply look at the facts and they are so obvious that only people who blindly support or blindly oppose Obamacare cannot see the facts for what they are. Big Pharma and corporate owned healthcare just inherited a goldmine that won't play out for several years and when it does... they'll sell off the mines to dump radioactive waste into basically meaning they'll sell us all out to kill Obamacare or anything else that threatens their profit line.
    (more)
  • ehrhornp 2012/12/07 18:30:36
    Yes
    ehrhornp
    +2
    but not nearly as much as a single payer universal health system. Mitt was right when he complimented Israel for keeping health care to 8% compared to 18% in the United States.
  • hippycat 2012/12/07 18:26:42
    Yes
    hippycat
    +4
    ultimately it will.. more people insured = better health for all. Better health reflects in lower premiums, fewer sick days. You should be proud to finally catch up with European standards instead of whining about 'expensive' Obama-care.
  • Butterfly hippycat 2012/12/08 07:45:17
    Butterfly
    26 million people , will still , not be insured under obamacare. You are delusional.
    15 agents are hired by obama to DENY BENEFITS. Stop with the kool aid. Bankrupt, post office, bankrupt Social Security, bankrupt Mediare, Bankrupt medicaid. You know zero.
  • hippycat Butterfly 2012/12/08 11:57:00
    hippycat
    if they deny healthcare, that's their problem then, at least they have the option.
  • Louisa - Enemy of the State 2012/12/07 18:15:00
    No
    Louisa - Enemy of the State
    +2
    I don't see how it could lower healthcare costs when the institutions providing services need to cover their costs. And don't forget that everything the government is involved in is accompanied by massive fraud and SNAFU'S.

    And speaking of the government, I worked for an organization that received payment from the government and in one year those payments amounted to more than $70k which my employer kept! Inefficiency and fraud is rampant.
  • freethinker 2012/12/07 18:08:44
    No
    freethinker
    +2
    Just wait till The Grand Slavers little Slaves really need a doctor!! lmao!!
  • bpf 2012/12/07 17:23:32
    No
    bpf
    +3
    Check the facts it will not, only a kool-aid drinker thinks it will...Look at the U.K. the cost rose to the point now were the care is rationed, the percentage of people (allowed to die) has increased and where the ratio of doctors to citizen has dropped.
  • Steve 2012/12/07 17:17:30
    No
    Steve
    +2
    Now that the bill has past we can actually see whats in it!
  • Mountainman 2012/12/07 17:11:59
    No
    Mountainman
    +1
    The government has never run anything cheaper than the private sector...and it has always been poorer and slower service because most of the time your dealing with government employees.
  • Seonag 2012/12/07 16:50:27
    No
    Seonag
    +2
    Well, it sure hasn't done so yet. Even the Government run Medicare has had a rate increase for Part B for 2013! As for the alleged 'rebates,' I don't know anyone who has gotten one. My husband is not on Medicare yet and his insurance has jumped 32% since Obamacare was passed and he hasn't gotten a rebate yet.
  • Eddie 2012/12/07 16:44:51
    No
    Eddie
    +1
    I don't think anything will lower the cost. Corporate America is feasting on this cash cow and they have no intention of letting anything stop it. Put in a new plan or law and they'll find some way to twist it to their advantage every time. And since they own the politicians, there will always be some loophole or back door written in to insure that they can do so.
  • Jeff Smith 2012/12/07 16:44:28
    No
    Jeff Smith
    +1
    It's a tax increase. My insurance rates keep going up and the coverage's are less for more money. It may save those who get it for free but that's the only ones who will save that and all the illegals who pay nothing for it now
  • RJeffreySavlov 2012/12/07 16:38:59
    No
    RJeffreySavlov
    +3
    It wasn't designed to lower costs, it was designed to screw the public for the benefit of the deadbeats, bums and illegals. I have not had health insurance for at least ten years due to a pre-existing condition and my total cost of medical treatment and medication has averaged less than 10,000 annually. Under the new system I would have to pay premiums of $9600 annually plus a $10,000 deductible plus the cost of medication and $50.00 copay for doctor visits and the insurance would only cover 50% with a maximum $7500. annually out of pocket. You tell me how this is saving me money. It would cost me 3 to 4 times more than now. Where is the money coming from? Medicare, Medicade and the states to the tune of billions. It is a total failure and it doesn't take an actuary, accountant or economist to figure it out. Get rid of it and those who voted for it.
  • All American 2012/12/07 15:45:58
    No
    All American
    My premiums keep going up as do the cost of medical procedures.
  • tommyg - POTL- PWCM-JLA 2012/12/07 15:30:48
    No
    tommyg - POTL- PWCM-JLA
    +1
    It was never about lowering healthcare costs.
  • fluer 2012/12/07 15:10:22
    No
    fluer
    +1
    I know my insurance doubled and the coverage lost ground significantly. My drug coverage now has a deductable and the copays went up and now instead of a flat rate of $20 for a Doctor visit it is $30 plus the copays on the tests etc that used to be covered. I used to have a 500 copay to go into the hospital now it is 2000 and it goes on and on. The only less cost was in birth control but at 63 - 20 years after a total hysterectomy that really does not help me a smidgen. I sure did not get any rebate.
  • krayzrick 2012/12/07 15:04:29
    No
    krayzrick
    +1
    Your serious? No way. Your gonna support the millions who don't have health care..nothing the government does is cheaper.
  • Marianne723 2012/12/07 13:36:52
  • hasher 2012/12/07 12:41:39
    No
    hasher
    +1
    no we will be paying through the nose for our premiums and the quality of care will go down. will have longer waits for surgery and other procedures.
  • Redneck 2012/12/07 10:45:47
    Yes
    Redneck
    +1
    and will lower the quality of care. Of that, I have no doubt.
  • Eddie Redneck 2012/12/07 16:46:27
    Eddie
    +1
    No. It may lower the quality of the care but we'll still be paying through the nose for it.
  • Redneck Eddie 2012/12/08 22:44:49
    Redneck
    I do think it will lower the cost that the government pays for it, but not what you and I pay for and and I know for sure, without a sliver of doubt that it will lower the quality of health care.
  • Eddie Redneck 2012/12/10 16:15:07
    Eddie
    Quality healthcare will always be available to those who can afford it. Even in a nationalized healthcare situation. Those who can afford it will always get better care. It's just that the number of those who can afford it will get smaller and smaller as the costs escalate. Which they will. Regardless of who is president or speaker of the house. Just as it has done continually over my nearly half a century of life.
  • GeorgeAMartini 2012/12/07 10:17:12
    No
    GeorgeAMartini
    +3
    But then again, it might get cheaper, when we start eliminating old people as they become too much of a burden. That is the ONLY way this freedom crushing, backroom deal that no one read before passage could ever make things cheaper. It's math, Mr. President.
  • seadog6608PWCM 2012/12/07 08:58:21
  • Surly Curmudgen 2012/12/07 07:25:50
    No
    Surly Curmudgen
    +3
    Are you 63% all insane. The cost is already sky rocketing.
  • NoBama Man 2012/12/07 06:23:34 (edited)
    No
    NoBama Man
    +4


    See the 'blue' bar ???? That is what the liar in chief campaigned on and told the American people Obamacare would COST...OVER TEN YEARS..,

    But MOST Americans (about 73% who opposed it) knew it was going to be much MORE than that.... for instance...

    The National Health Service, England's national healthcare, serves a population of roughly 65 million people, which includes Wales, Scotland and Ireland...,

    Serving comparatively ONLY the states of California, New York and Virginia.

    Englands NHS is the 5th largest employer in the world with 1.5 miilion employees...,
    and more than 1 in 50 people in the country work within the NHS.

    The NHS budget for 2012 was roughly $170 BILLION....

    That is $170 BILLION to serve ONLY only the states of California, New York and Virginia

    As we speak, the NHS is facing serious financial shortfalls resulting in cutbacks in services and professional staff (nurses and doctors) to control spending.

    Less than HALF of the employees are clinical professionals.., doctors, nurses, etc.
    More than half of NHS employees are managers, administrative or consultants.

    So...in a country that is approximately 4.5 times larger, such as the U.S., with a population of 315 million,
    We can expect a budget of conservatively $760 BILLION dollars annually..,

    with a workforce of ...








    obama care

    See the 'blue' bar ???? That is what the liar in chief campaigned on and told the American people Obamacare would COST...OVER TEN YEARS..,

    But MOST Americans (about 73% who opposed it) knew it was going to be much MORE than that.... for instance...

    The National Health Service, England's national healthcare, serves a population of roughly 65 million people, which includes Wales, Scotland and Ireland...,

    Serving comparatively ONLY the states of California, New York and Virginia.

    Englands NHS is the 5th largest employer in the world with 1.5 miilion employees...,
    and more than 1 in 50 people in the country work within the NHS.

    The NHS budget for 2012 was roughly $170 BILLION....

    That is $170 BILLION to serve ONLY only the states of California, New York and Virginia

    As we speak, the NHS is facing serious financial shortfalls resulting in cutbacks in services and professional staff (nurses and doctors) to control spending.

    Less than HALF of the employees are clinical professionals.., doctors, nurses, etc.
    More than half of NHS employees are managers, administrative or consultants.

    So...in a country that is approximately 4.5 times larger, such as the U.S., with a population of 315 million,
    We can expect a budget of conservatively $760 BILLION dollars annually..,

    with a workforce of approximately 5 million..,

    of which less than HALF will be medical professionals,
    and more than HALF will be bureaucratic administration.

    If we are to use this math....we will be spending 3/4 of a TRILLION dollars PER YEAR...

    a CONSERVATIVE estimate would be $5 TRILLION to $7.5 TRILLION per decade.

    We are fools if anybody in this country believes this is a rational idea that will improve services and cut costs.., yet another SOCIALIST program that has been a proven abject failure virtually EVERYWHERE it has been implemented.
    (more)
  • democoach 2012/12/07 06:13:10
    No
    democoach
    +3
    just because obama says he will lower it doesn't mean he will, in fact it probably will jack up instead
  • rk 2012/12/07 06:05:10
    No
    rk
    +3
    You have to be completely brain dead to believe that. The facts and logic prove that costs will increase to where no one will have insurance and only have substandard care. Wow why don't you 2067 idiots pay attention?

See Votes by State

The map above displays the winning answer by region.

Entertainment

2014/07/30 11:22:59

Hot Questions on SodaHead
More Hot Questions

More Community More Originals