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GM, Chrysler & Ford! Should they be left for dead?

Conservative Crusader November 16, 2008 17:28:51

Has union labor out lived its day?
Japanese manufacturers are moving away from union labor and they are doing fine.

The big three are stuck on stupid with union labor and are dying with poor quality products.

No big three products are on anyone's top ten list of anything good!
Yes! I demand Quality! The big three suck! (Explain)
No! The big three make great products!   (Please explain)
No! Do away with the union and bring back quality!
Undecided
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  • +4 raves houstoncarl November 16, 2008 19:44:53
    houstoncarl

    Undecided

    I say yes, because it would force the unions to renegotiate. Let them go through bankruptcy.
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  • T December 25, 2008 22:41:41
    T

    No! The big three make great products! (Please explain)

    Their only error is not having better designs or fuel economy. It has nothing to do with Labor unions (except for the legacy clause that was put in place long ago.) Unions stated they were willing to talk about concessions. BUT the actual labor costs are pretty close to what the foreign automakers are. Also, foreign countries help subsidize their car companies - we didn't until now.
  • pepper131 November 17, 2008 15:26:30
    pepper131

    No! The big three make great products! (Please explain)

    The unions renegotiated four years ago. GM’s products are very good. Look at the automobiles over five years old on the road what are they-American. We have given 1.2 trillion dollars to the thieving bankers who get 50 million dollar bonuses and will not help a $14.00 hour auto worker. Yes, that is the hourly to start. The lies from the right about the 100k a year auto worker is a lie. Just think of working on an assembly line every day [or night] for 30+ years , not a job I would want. People “talk” about being “patriots” but will not help 2.5 million of their fellow Americans. We will go into depression if the go into bankruptcy.
  • +1 raves
    Conserv... pepper131 November 17, 2008 20:48:12
    Conservative Crusader
    No matter how much you pay a turd it still gives birth to baby turds. Both smell like shit. T We Americans are just now coming around to building a car that will make it to your loan payoff. The Japanese have been doing this and then some since the 80's. I buy for value not patriotism. Promoting the free market economy is patriotic. Socialism and bailing out companies who are poorly managed is not. File for bankruptcy like everyone else.

    Failed unions and their systems:
    1. Public Education
    2. Cars
    3. Steel
    4. Truckers

    wow a correlation? Maybe its time for the union to go away and then you get paid for your actual worth.
  • pepper131 Conserv... November 21, 2008 16:22:55
    pepper131
    How unions fail to work. The answer they do not. Management fails to do their job and when things are good spend on everything but there business. GM / Ford bought banks. Worker who make things do not design them so who then? Management again fails. Teachers stay under a probationary period. Where is the management [principle] at? Automobile's well that is management who has the say over what a person makes and how it designed. Steel is a good two fold example. First we built the factories in Europe after WW2 and in Japan. We built the ones in Korea in 1953. Here the companies never updated the mills. Profits in the 1940’s,50’s never went to the mills only to the company, again management. Trucking has always worked, it is a regional business, trains haul to centralized points and trucks from there on. Truckers are blamed by management because they want rules so they cannot drive more them 18 hours a day. Remember no overtime for the 18 hours. We tend to ‘blame’ the workers when management has failed at all turns because of greed. Please look at the banks and wall street. Are you a do nothing worker? I do not think that of anyone, management has power to tell you and get rid of you. I worked for 36 years in management and the place was unionized. Most managers go to personnel...
    How unions fail to work. The answer they do not. Management fails to do their job and when things are good spend on everything but there business. GM / Ford bought banks. Worker who make things do not design them so who then? Management again fails. Teachers stay under a probationary period. Where is the management [principle] at? Automobile's well that is management who has the say over what a person makes and how it designed. Steel is a good two fold example. First we built the factories in Europe after WW2 and in Japan. We built the ones in Korea in 1953. Here the companies never updated the mills. Profits in the 1940’s,50’s never went to the mills only to the company, again management. Trucking has always worked, it is a regional business, trains haul to centralized points and trucks from there on. Truckers are blamed by management because they want rules so they cannot drive more them 18 hours a day. Remember no overtime for the 18 hours. We tend to ‘blame’ the workers when management has failed at all turns because of greed. Please look at the banks and wall street. Are you a do nothing worker? I do not think that of anyone, management has power to tell you and get rid of you. I worked for 36 years in management and the place was unionized. Most managers go to personnel now human resources and talk about what to do are told do nothing. I had many fired and the union never complained because I documented everything as a manager has to do. 80% are good, 10% need watching and talking to and 10% you tell they need to find another job. Schools are odd because parents “like” a teacher who is bad and will go to the school board over the principle, He/She [ principle] needs to resign and tell the public why.
    (more)
  • Flowerbomb pepper131 November 23, 2008 17:10:55
    Flowerbomb
    Does sticking a GM emblem on a car even warrant $14 an hour? Umm, no. No one has to work on an assembly line for 30+ years, that is a choice. The starting wage of $14 would be for someone who not yet joined the union. it is not a lie that your average income of a union auto worker is over $100K/yr when you factor in benefits. Nurses, Police, Firefighters, Teachers & Many Pediatricians do not make near that and they perform jobs that have actual value to society. McDonalds pays minimum wage, that is not easy work, should we pay those employees $25,$50 or $75/hr because that is an amount that puts you above the poverty line? Paying people more than they are worth is not patriotic, bailing out failing companies is not patriotic, assisting companies who make inferior products simply because they are American is not patriotic, it is stupid and bad business. If they go into bankruptcy we will not go into a depression, the companies will be forced to regroup and run their business like other successful businesses without the burden of the unions outrageous demands and pay. Why should the rest of us help those 2.5 million Americans by allowing them to continue making more than they are worth at our own personal expense?
  • +1 raves
    Ravenhon - Patriotic Atheist November 17, 2008 15:04:44
    Ravenhon - Patriotic Atheist

    Undecided

    I take the same stand that I took against the bank bailout. Let dying businesses fail!!!!!
  • +2 raves
    Flowerbomb November 17, 2008 13:32:45
    Flowerbomb

    Yes! I demand Quality! The big three suck! (Explain)

    That is business. If you can't make a quality product and you cannot control expenses or your workers then your business fails.
    We have 3 vehicles. 2 are german and are 2 years old and 1 year old, 1 is a GM product and 1 year old. The GM has been to the dealer at least 5 times for problems, the German cars have had oil changes. In the last 20 years, the 3 times I have gone with an American car it has been nothing but a headache.
  • +1 raves
    Formulabruce November 17, 2008 02:15:58
    Formulabruce

    No! Do away with the union and bring back quality!

    Get Federal protection from Litigation, and KEEP the employees and boot the union. Its the only way to compete, However, if the economy was better they may be in "ok" shape.
    I blame BARNEY FRANK for the Economy, along with others that are guilty, or COVERED UP the guilty.
  • +3 raves
    Lipstick Republican November 16, 2008 23:11:21
    Lipstick Republican

    Yes! I demand Quality! The big three suck! (Explain)

    moderated...
  • nancee Lipstic... November 17, 2008 01:03:41
    nancee
    I think that the unemployed that can qualify, should join the armed forces and help get these wars over. We need to always feed the armed forces in able to stay #1 in the world. Also it would help because the unemployement rate wouldn't go sky high.
  • WhatsHerFace November 16, 2008 23:06:23
    WhatsHerFace

    Undecided

    I don't know but most small businesses are left for dead if they don't manage their money properly.
    Where are we supposed to get all this money? China? Saudi Arabia?
  • Bill - McGee - 2012 "I am a... November 16, 2008 22:38:58
    Bill - McGee - 2012

    Undecided

    not left for dead, but certainly a "bloatectomy" wouldn't hurt...
  • +1 raves
    Bill - Buffalo Soldier November 16, 2008 20:17:23
    Bill - Buffalo Soldier

    Undecided

    Not undecided just couldn't match up on answers. I think they need to go into chapter 11 - total reorg, dump some upper and middle management, need to be leaner organizations and definitely need to redo the onerous union contracts that even have one group getting paid to not work. Crazy stuff.
    They have lost $73 billion over the past 5-6 years (their numbers) - that is their fault for bad, bad management and bad, bad union contracts. Might as well throw money down a rat hole. Now, if they do go chapter 11 and need limited assistance after reorgs etc - lend them some money but not now.
  • +1 raves
    Formula... Bill - ... November 17, 2008 02:23:03
    Formulabruce
    FYI we bailed out Chrysler before
  • Bill - ... Formula... November 17, 2008 16:49:40
    Bill - Buffalo Soldier
    Yes, 1979 I think, not sure. A loan and they paid it back in full with interest before it was due. The entire nation was not in a financial crisis however. The money was not to feed onerous union contracts - this money is just for that. So NO on money to big 3
  • +1 raves
    centrust Bill - ... November 21, 2008 05:07:03 (edited)
    centrust
    I agree with you BBill. Plus, realistically how much will $25 billion do toward changing GM? I mean can they seriously retool their plants and do any significant changes that might make them more competitive permanently or is this just a bandaid. I think we stop delaying the pain and get them through Chapter 11 and hopefully they can come out a leaner meaner stronger company that will be more competitive in the international and domestic car market.

    However, our government has to start protecting the Detroit 3 if they finally deliver better quality cars. The international free trade agreements are so unfairly tilted toward the foreign companies. Why is it that 16 zillion cars from Japan come into the U.S. and you are lucky to see 3000 Fords in all of Japan? Answer Japan's unfairly high import tarriffs compared to U.S. import Tarriffs on Japanese imported products. Our Congress is killing our businesses playing Santa Claus to the world.
  • +4 raves
    houstoncarl November 16, 2008 19:44:53
    houstoncarl

    Undecided

    I say yes, because it would force the unions to renegotiate. Let them go through bankruptcy.
  • +2 raves
    Brutus D. is Tea'd Off! November 16, 2008 19:37:20
    Brutus D. is Tea'd Off!

    Undecided

    On one hand I love my "American made" cars (few are actually made in America anymore) but on the other what will keep them running? Do we need to mortgage our next 3 generations for them to just go belly up again? Chrysler has already done that. I do not want to see them go.
  • +1 raves
    iris326 November 16, 2008 19:35:12
    iris326

    Yes! I demand Quality! The big three suck! (Explain)

    The auto companies wouldn't be in the place they are if they were selling what customers were looking to buy... It hasn't been a secret there is a gas crisis. None of them that I'm aware of are or recently were offering anything efficient even though they had previously GEO metros and Ford Fiestas and other types of small cars they had been making.
  • Formula... iris326 November 17, 2008 02:26:05
    Formulabruce
    I had 2 chevy "Sprint" , both got 45+ mpg
    The place they are in has some to do with the unions, and much more to do with the Economy. Its it odd that ALL 3 need help? If it was one I could say management, but its all of them.
    Also, the Unions do do some to help quality, and it HAS improved.
    I will be pissed if I cant get a NEW GMC truck when I am ready
  • pepper131 iris326 November 17, 2008 15:30:39
    pepper131
    GM makes the Saturn line, also the Vibe, Malabu is as good and any Honda and is hybrid, also cheaper.
  • +2 raves
    D.J.-USN. November 16, 2008 18:34:43
    D.J.-USN.

    Undecided

    All employee groups need to make the necessary consessions pryor to any tax payer dollars similar to the airlines.If not then Bankruptcy and break the unions. : )
  • +1 raves
    old mccain November 16, 2008 18:27:10
    old mccain

    Undecided

    First, you are incorrect regarding the 'best' with all non-American vehicles. Second, I blame the consumer for not buying American products, period! Foreign vehicles owners are trying to justify their purchase. Demand quality and you will get it. No one blames themselfs, do they?
  • Southern Man November 16, 2008 17:41:35
    Southern Man

    Undecided

    GM is in the shitter Ford Stock is so low it's not funny i think Chrysler should buy them both out and make one Great car company and do away with the union's thay just make for lazy labor
  • Formula... Souther... November 17, 2008 02:27:52
    Formulabruce
    Then youll have NO competition, and price will be high, and NOBODY will buy them.
    PS GM is quite a bit biger than Mopar, and has many sub- industries
  • Souther... Formula... November 17, 2008 02:31:02
    Southern Man
    are you kidding me what about toyota, Honda , ect .ect . lots of competition
  • +2 raves
    Conservative Crusader November 16, 2008 17:38:22
    Conservative Crusader

    Yes! I demand Quality! The big three suck! (Explain)

    The big three should have to go through what every other business has to in a free market economy. The unions are killing them. They need to declare bankruptcy and reorganize but not at the tax payers expense!

    market economy unions killing declare bankruptcy reorganize tax payers expense
  • Formula... Conserv... November 22, 2008 16:12:58
    Formulabruce
    Funny, the DEMOCRATS in COngress that caused this mess, are the ones ELECTED by the UNIONS, and now the DEMS in Congress will be the ones to DESTROY them!!!!
  • +2 raves
    bill November 16, 2008 17:31:23
    bill

    Yes! I demand Quality! The big three suck! (Explain)

    It is time for a new generation of manufacturing to begin in the USA with an unpresidented ability to customize and with even more robotics in the work force.
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